The Need for the Holy Spirit Under Debate:
This write up is on the need for the Holy Spirit. I realize some of what I have written may be the first time you have heard the Holy Spirit presented in the manner I have and am presenting Him, but please read all of the following writings that I was under debate with quite a few other preachers and Bible college graduates. I'm sorry for the length of this. I hope you will let me know where you stand on this issue after reading all of these writings below.
I will now open up with a subject, I hope you will also share your view on this.
I don't know about you. But I have set in church congregations and hear men standing behind the pulpit make this statement;
"You don't have to have the Holy Ghost to go to heaven".
The first time I heard this statement out loud coming from behind the pulpit
in a Pentecostal church, I was in shock, my mouth dropped open and my eyes
were dazed. For the life of me I have not been able to back that statement up
in the scriptures. In fact I only find the opposite.
Are we not drawn to the Lord through the Spirit of God? Does not the Holy
Spirit bear witness with our spirit that we are a child of God when we truly
give our heart to the Lord? Does not the Holy Spirit give us a hunger and a
thirst for "all" that God has for us? 1 John 5:5-8 states the Father, the Son
& the Holy Ghost are one, and then goes on to say the Spirit the Water and
the Blood "agree in one".
Acts 2:38,39 Did not Peter tell the people they needed to repent (the Blood)
to be baptized (the water) And they "Shall" receive the gift of the Holy
Ghost, the promise is there for us to receive? Rom 8:14 states that as many
that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. Did not the church
that was spoke of after the book of Acts, a Spirit filled church? Did not
Jesus say in John 16:7 that it was expedient that he went away, so the Holy
Spirit can come and teach us? Did Jesus not say in John 14:20 At that day we
will know? To make a statement that we do not need the Holy Ghost baptism
and Fire with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives
the utterance is very, very, dangerous. I would hate to be the one standing
in front of God the Father with the Lamb of God at his right hand and be
guilty of saying we do not need the infilling of God's spirit. In fact, how
can we be a soldier in the Lord without the Power of the Holy Ghost? Back
in the old days, a new convert was told after conversion, to not give up
until they were filled with the Holy Spirit of God. Now they are told they
don't need that? And we wonder why most of the churches are not having any
manifestations from God? Instead we lift up men to be like unto, that do not
even believe in the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking
in other tongues, and put these men up on a pedestal?
Those that are led by the Spirit of God, are the Son's of God, How can we be
led if we refuse, Him? And say, we do not need Him? Are there 2 Spirits? One
at conversion? and another at the Infilling? No, There is one, Holy Ghost, as
there is One God the Father, and One Lamb, the Christ, the Son of the Living
God.
Frank Ritchie
Subject: Teaching on the Holy Spirit:
Response to Wrong Teaching:
I have had men in some of the churches I was attending while I was seeking for the infilling of the Holy Ghost tell me "You already have the Holy Spirit, All you need is the "Tongues".
Thank God, I was brought up by a Holy Ghost filled parents that knew the Word of God.
This teaching is "Wrong" No where in the scriptures will you find this teaching, But you will find that when the people in the scriptures were filled with the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. See Isaiah 28:11, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 2:33, Mark 16:17, Acts 10:45-47, Acts 19:6, 1 Cor, 13:1, 1 Cor. 14:2, 1 Cor. 14:15,18,21,39, Eph. 5:18,19, Eph. 6:17,18 Jude 1:20, Rom. 8:26,27.
The Fullness and the promise of the Holy Ghost is for every believer as Acts 2:38,39 proclaims, Everyone that has been filled with the Spirit spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance, This is not a learned tongue but Holy Ghost given from the belly up through the believer.
As you will read in Corinthians, the believers that Paul was speaking to, were Holy Ghost filled and spoke in tongues the same as Holy Ghost filled believers do today.
The gift of tongues spoken of in 1 Cor. 4 through 11 as stated, is for the edification of the church body, with-in a group of believers spoken for interpretation for the body of believers.
As 1 Cor. Declares, all the gifts of the Spirit is given by the Holy Ghost through Holy Ghost filled believers.
The Scriptures given earlier prove that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of a believer having the fullness of the Holy Spirit. Praying in the Holy Ghost (Tongues) is for every Christian, the gift of Tongues spoken in Cor. 12: 10 is as the other gifts, is inspired by the Holy Spirit through a Holy Ghost filled believer given for the edification of the body of the church.
This is a very simple thing, but yet because the Holy Ghost Baptism is rejected by so many, we are fed these false teachings, that tell us we already have the infilling of the Holy Spirit upon Repentance even though there is no scripture that declares this false teaching.
But there are numerous scriptures that state otherwise. Why, we ask, why? The answer is this: People refuse to give their ALL to God, God has given his ALL for us and yet some think we can get by without giving our whole heart to the Lord. And refuse to Ask, Seek & Knock until they receive as the scripture declares, but this is labor, and most refuse to come to this place of yielding so the Lord God will fill us to overflowing with his precious Holy Ghost and Fire. And we "will" speak in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. Out of our bellies will flow the living water.
Subject: Teaching:
Response to Pastor Scott:
And we wonder why more are not filled with the Holy Ghost? Brother "If" You
are filled with the Holy Spirit? How can the words come from your mouth, we
do not need the Holy Ghost? I did not and I will not say a person will not go
to heaven if they are not filled with the Holy Spirit, But I do not blurt
out, We do not need the infilling of the Holy Ghost, when we "All" do! What
is the evidence of the Infilling of the Holy Spirit? Are there 2 Spirits?
other then a deceiving and the Holy Spirit?
There is a vast difference between bible college and being taught by the Holy
Spirit, How can we be led by the Spirit if we are going by man's doctrine and not
God's. To make the statement You made, I would fear for my soul.
This is the problem with Preachers today, they are being led by man instead
of God. Lets get real, We are the Temples of God to be filled to the fullness
thereof, Quite telling people they do not need the Holy Ghost and lets start
getting people filled with the Holy Spirit, If you want to have a Baptist
doctrine and say that was for the old days not today, I say move aside and
let someone behind the pulpit that is not afraid to preach the truth. We need
ALL that God has for us, The Bible states there are few that will make
heaven, God states for us to Pray in the Holy Ghost, How can that be if we
haven't been filled? How can we do what He did without His Power? How can we receive His Power as Acts 1:8 states unless we have His Power within? I say
believe Gods, word not the twisted and diluted mans gospel of today, saying
we don't need the only thing that will Deliver us and set us Free, That will
give us Victory, That we can walk with the Holy Ghost and be led by His
Spirit.
Frank Ritchie
Subject: Teaching:
Response to Roger:
I see you took a lot of time to write what you did, And I also see where you
are in God.
1 Cor. 6:16; States And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for
ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them,
and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Isaiah 28:9-12; Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to
understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the
breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon
line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering
lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Jude 20:20 But ye beloved, building up yourselves on your most high holy
faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. I could set back and write the complete Bible referring to the proof of the need of the Holy Spirit Infilling with the manifestation thereof. But I'm afraid it would do no good, Because you would twist to fit your theology.
You can write and say many words, it sounds good to the ear, but without the
anointing it is dead, like most of today's services, due to the lack of the
power of the Spirit, due to you and many others teaching and refusing to
depend on the Spirit of God. Have your way sir. I cannot stop you and your
kind, I can only state the Truth, We "ALL" need the Infilling Power of the
Holy Spirit Baptism with Fire with the evidence of speaking in other tongues
as the Spirit gives the utterance.
Why do you and yours hinder the work of the Spirit? Refusing to yield and
submit to Him? Teaching your people they don't need the very Spirit that will
teach them? Maybe so you can continue to defile the scriptures with your
religion.
We All need the Holy Ghost. Why are you so scared of the Spirit? Are you
afraid there will be changes? Because there would be you know, Once people
taste and see that God is good, they will flee from the Frozen preachers that
declare they do not need the very thing that will change there life forever.
Grow up in God and quite playing church, One day you will die, as I will,
Don't wait tell then to find out, fall on your knees and as the Holy Spirit
to led you into ALL truth, and he will.
Frank Ritchie
Subject: Holy Spirit Teaching:
Response to Dave & All,
I am not of Oneness doctrine, I was raised in the Assemblies of God, with my
Dad being an Assembly of God ordained preacher and Pastored churches all over the country. His name is Rev. John J. Ritchie, He has gone to be with the Lord now, he was 96 years young and filled with the Spirit and still taught the need for others to be.
Unlike I hear in the Assemblies of God churches of today. I did not leave this list to run and hide, I left because I really did not want to be looked at as a
trouble maker, but, no matter if I leave or stay, that is what I am saddled
with because I believe we must receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to have
the full plan of "Yes" Salvation. Before we can truly become a Son of God. I
never said a person could not enter Heaven without the Infilling, But I do
not preach we do not need. I preach we do need. As should you. I am not
against Bible school, My Mother spent most of her young life there, besides
being in a sanitarium due to TB, that is before God healed her and erased any
sign of TB from her Blood. I am against false teaching. And any teaching that
states we can do without the Infilling of the Holy Ghost under any concept is
wrong.
I will now give you and all some scriptures backing up what the scriptures declare:
We are Commanded to receive: Luke 24:49, Eph. 5:18,19, John 20:21,22. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is for every believer: Acts 2:16-18 (Joel 2:28,29), Acts 2:38,39, Luke 24:49, Acts 10:44-47, Acts 19:1-7, John 17:20-23, John 14:15-20,23.
The Evidence of the Infilling: Isaiah 28:11, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 2:33, Mark 16:17, Acts 10:45-47, Acts 19:6, 1 Cor, 13:1, 1 Cor. 14:2, 1 Cor.
14:15,18,21,39, Eph. 5:18,19, Eph. 6:17,18 Jude 1:20, Rom. 8:26,27.
The Power of the Spirit through believers: John 14:12-20,26, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15-20, Mark 13:11, Luke 24:49, Mat. 10:1,7-8, Mat. 10:16-20, Mark 6:7-13, Luke 9:1,2,6, Luke 10:1 & 2, Luke 10:19, 1 John 4:4, Rom. 15:13,19, 1 Cor. 2:4,5, Gal. 3:5, Eph. 6:10, 1 Thes. 1:5, 2 Tim. 1:7, Heb. 2:4,14, 2 Pet. 1:21, 1 John 2:27.
Mockers & Scoffers: Luke 2:34, Jude 17-20, Acts 7:51, 2 Tim. 3:15, Exo. 32:9, Ish. 28:11,12, 1 Cor. 2:14, James 3:14,15, Acts 19:9, Prov.
5:12-15, Jeremiah 2:13.
Some other Scriptures on the Holy Spirit: Zec. 4:6, Gen. 1:1-2, Gen. 2:7, Job 33:4, Ezekiel 37:1-10, John 3:8, Acts 2:1-4, Ezekiel 36:24-28.
Also Roger, I would like for you to read these following Scriptures as far as the wording goes with-in or upon: Gen. 41:38, Exo. 31:1-3, Num. 11:25-30, Num. 24:2, Judges 3:9,10, Judges 6:34, Judges 11:29, Judges 13:24,25, 14:6, 14:19, 15:14, 1 Sam 10:6, 10:10, 11:6, 16:12-14, Psalm
51:11, 1 Sam 19:20, 23-24, 2 Sam 23:2, 2 Kings 2:9, 2 Chron 15:1 & 24:20 Job 27:3, Job 32:8,18 Job 33:4, Isaiah 42:1, Isaiah 61:1,2 Isaiah 63:11,14,
Ezekiel 11:5, Zechar. 7:12, Luke 1:15, Luke 1:41, Luke 1:67-70. Some
Scriptures on the Promises of the Holy Spirit: 1 Sam 10:6, Psalm 81:10, Psalm 84:11,12 Proverbs 1:23, Isaiah 41:17-18, 44:3, 55:1, 59:21, Ezek. 11:19,20 36:26-28, 37:14, Hosea 6:1-3, 10:12, Joel 2:28,29, Mat. 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, Luke 11:9-13, 24:49, John 1:33, John 1:33, 4:10, 7:37-39, 14:16,17 & 26, John 15:26, 16:7-15, Acts 1:4,5,8, 2:15-18, 2:38,39, 11:16, Gal. 3:14, 2 Peter 1:4, Rev. 22:17.
If you read all the scriptures above as I have, along with many more you will begin to see the importance of the Infilling of the Holy Spirit. Just turn to Exodus 12:7-11 And you will see after the blood was applied they partook of that lamb hurriedly, So should we. Read all of John 6 and there is no doubt, we must partake of the Spirit. Heb 6 states for us to go on to perfection, How? without first completing the full plan of salvation and put away childish things and become men & women in God, It can only be accomplished through the Holy Spirit. We are supposed to be a Spirit filled church, with the gifts operating in our churches, We all know there are False things happening too, But does that really take away from the real move of the Holy Spirit? If people really had a true manifestation of the Spirit in there lives, if they witnessed healing miracles before there eyes as Jesus said we can have in John 14:12,we would look at the need of the Spirit
differently. Tell the believers at Azuza Street they do not need to be filled with the Spirit. They would look at you as I do.
And Roger, the Manifestations of Tongues were since The day of Pentecost, And I'm afraid that was before the 1900s. A person going to heaven is up to God, I will never say a person will not make heaven if they have confessed their sins and are living for God, But at the same time I will never tell someone that they can make heaven without the Holy Ghost. I have no patience with so called Spirit filled believers that grieve the Holy Spirit by declaring to the people the fullness of the Spirit is not required. Think about this, How are we taken to heaven? Is it not by the Spirit? My name is written in the Lambs book of life as I hope yours is. Jesus said in Mat. 28:18-20 The Father, the Son & the Holy Ghost, Which you
David are declaring, But there is more to this, Like 1 John 5:5-8 The Blood
the Water & the Spirit. I baptize the folk in the Name of the Father, The Son
(Jesus Christ) & the Holy Ghost. Just wondering? will you even use the name
Jesus with the Trinity Baptism? Are you that stubborn that you will refuse to say the name of Jesus in baptism? The Water is a commandment, Just like receiving the Holy Ghost is. But the difference is, there are different functions, as there is with the Blood, 1st time the blood was shed was in the garden when God took coats of skin and covered Adam & Eves Shame. The Water is not just the Baptism and an answer to a good conscience toward God, but also representing Sanctification, Holiness, Godly living set apart unto God, Purification, and Preparation as the Tent was in, and Solomon's Temple was in Preparation and then when it was ready, The Holy Anointing fell, and they could not even bear the Spirit due to the Power of the Spirit. This should be the case with every believer since we are the Temples of God, not the Buildings, To be filled with His Spirit. As Jesus said as he breathed on them (The importance of being shown), Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
And I will now leave you with one last scripture; John 3:3-8 As the same as
what happened in the book of Acts 2:4. And "Yes" I raise Pigeons, shame on me.
Frank Ritchie
Subject: Teaching:
Response to Wilma:
The Blood is for cleansing, The water is for Purification, and Preparation,
The Spirit is for the teaching and Power to overcome and do what God has
called us to do. The Holy Spirit is part of the Salvation Plan, And My dear
I'm afraid it "IS" part of Gods salvation plan, and its always has been. I am
not UPC, and never had been, But the Scriptures plainly speak of the need of
the Holy Spirit. He is with us upon salvation, He bears witness of our
salvation, We feel his presence, He leads us into all truth, Knock, Seek,
Ask, Those that hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled. God
gave his "ALL" for us. If we think we can get by without giving our "ALL" to
him, we are mistaken. But I do agree with you on one thing, I need to
proclaim things without sarcasm. I can't help it, this is a "very important
issue. We must have the Spirit of God within and leading us.
I have never head so much nonsense in proclaiming the Gospel in all of my
life, from supposedly Pentecostal Preachers. If this is what the Bible
colleges of today are teaching, which it sounds like that exactly what is
happening, There is no wonder we have what we have. I know I might sound mean to some, But without the Spirit, there is no real power with God, all we have is the letter, But with the Spirit we have the living Word of God, we have
Ministers that are walking and proclaiming the spoken word of God. We need
Revival in our churches, (The Believers) And the only way this will happen is
if we humble ourselves and pray and yield that the Holy Spirit can take over
in our lives and through our lives.
I can't just say we need the Holy Spirit without proclaiming We NEED the Holy
Spirit, See He put on the back burner, He is something, If? you would like,
He is there, But if not it's OK. If you want to witness, He's for you, But if
you just want to be a regular Christian we don't need Him.
Think about how The Holy Spirit is being presented today, Not only on this
list but across the country. I need the Holy Spirit in my life, I could not
continue to serve God without him, I have to have Him, He is the one that
reveals Christ to me, He is the one that reveals his word to me, He is the
one that speaks in my Heart what to say and what to do. David said take not
thine Spirit from me, We need "Him," He is the Comforter sent from God that
is here now for us to receive. As Acts 2:38,39 proclaims, Why not pray to be
filled, And I believe you have and you do have, But just imagine your walk
without the Indwelling power of the Spirit.
Don't we remember the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, John 14 states at that day
you will know that I am in my Father You in me and I in You. That happen upon
the Infilling of the Holy Spirit as the Living water came forth from our
bellies. The Spirit bore witness at Salvation, I knew I was saved, At the
Holy Spirit Baptism I knew there was a difference, not just because of the
speaking in Tongues, But the Difference within me, God in Me and Me with God,
a man in Christ.
Frank Ritchie
Subject: Teaching:
Response to Pastor Scott:
I do believe you love the Lord and you are doing what you are your doing the
best way you know how to give the gospel as best you can with the knowledge
you have.
"But" who elected themselves God to proclaim the Holy Ghost Baptism is not
needed? When the Scripture states that it is. No where in the scripture does
the Bible State that you have the Indwelling Spirit upon Repentance of sin.
Of course you can use scripture that are dealing with a Spirit filled
believers and try to make them into scriptures to suit you case, But no where
does the Bible State what you are presenting, the way you are presenting it. As far as 1 Cor. 12:13 you will find 2 happenings, baptized into one body. (Is not this the Blood cleansing?) and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (Is not this the fullness of the Spirit?).
The presence of the lord can be felt and even the ministering Spirit be
powerful with a person that has not been yet filled with the Spirit. Because
we are a child of God upon conversion, But our full salvation plan has not
yet been fulfilled. You can use Acts 1:8 all day long, and the verse no way
states the Holy Ghost Fullness is just for ministering.
The manifestations that you refer to, can only be manifested in a Spirit
filled believer as those in all the books after Acts were. Because the
manifestations are through the Spirit. Which the evidence is a Believer that
has been filled with is speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the
utterance. And after this takes place, the Spirit is in place for the
operation of the gifts of the Spirit, by the Spirit, through a Spirit filled
Believer. If it was true what you are stating, then those that are in the Non
Spirit manifestation churches can and do have all the gifts of the spirit
because they have the holy Ghost with-in upon salvation. Tell me, when is the
last time you heard of someone in a Baptist or other having true Spirit
manifestations?
My God man, If we are filled with the Spirit we should understand the need of
the spirit, and also see those that have not been filled are lacking in
Spiritual understanding. When I stated the nonsense, I was referring to the
statements that we don't NEED the Holy Spirit, and the statement that the
fullness is only for witnessing.
I'm afraid we don not agree at all on this subject, But that does not mean I
think you are a heathen or something like unto, I just would like to see the
Holy Spirit put back into the Assemblies of God churches along with their
believers.
The way you are presenting the Gospel, every person that ever confesses Jesus
will on there way to Heaven when they die. And I know what the Scripture
states in Rom 10:9-13 and yes I believe the scriptures, But also In Rom 8 the
Word states that we must be lead by the Spirit, I also know the word states
if he does not have the Spirit of Christ he is none of His, And I know a new
convert does have the Spirit of Christ with them, which is the Holy Spirit,
The have a New converted Spirit with-in (a new heart) A new creature in
Christ. I am not taking away from salvation by saying we need all of the
Fullness of the Spirit. The fullness fulfills our salvation plan, Where we
should no longer be a new babe, but an adult in Christ, to go and do as the
Lord commands us to do. With the Spirit. I'm afraid you have the Scriptures
backwards, Acts 1:8 is referring to the receiving of the Fullness yes, as all
the scriptures I listed in the long list I posted before, along with the
command that we receive. Which you refuse to adhere to. There is another
scripture that states with men of other tongues and other lips I shall speak
to this people but yet they shall not hear, I always thought that scripture
was referring to non Pentecostal organizations, But then I realized there is
no manifestations in these churches, but there are, at least tolerated in the
Assembly, So is this Scripture dealing with those that teach as you?
The Bible states in Mat. 7:13-23 Few there will be, but with your teaching just
about all will make heaven. What about the Virgins that did not have the
vessels full, does any of these scriptures dealing with the Holy Spirit hit
home with you, That we MUST be full of the Spirit.
To be honest I am tired of this, I have given enough scriptures in the other
post that all can read and know they need the fullness of the spirit, If you
continue to reject Him, that is up to you, because it is Him you are
rejecting not me.
I'm done with this, I have said enough on this subject. Say what you will, But
I pray there are some that head and will read the scriptures I posted and
realize this is what they are missing in there walk, Because we can stay
shallow if we choose, but there are much deeper waters to swim in, in the
Lord, Like the waters that flow from the thrown. ankles, Knees, over our
head, waters to swim in, The glorious spirit of God that will reveal all
truth to who so ever will come and drink. The only requirement is to be
washed in the blood of the Lamb.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, but when I became a man I put away
childish things. The Lord states His people perish for the lack of knowledge.
Lets get back to where God's Spirit is running the church, not so called
Bible Scholars that have many words but very little anointing.
I must stop now.
Frank Ritchie
Subject: Agreement:
Response to Pastor Scott:
We are in agreement, on the Baptism in he Holy Spirit with the evidence of
speaking in other tongues, With the gift of tongues being separate spoken in
Cor. 12.
For one is for our own prayer between the Spirit through us and the Lord, And
the other for the edification of the church.
The reason I joined back on the list was because the Lord kept impressing a
scripture to me. So here it is: Jeremiah 2:11-13 states; Hath a nation
changed their gods, which are yet no gods? But My people have changed their
glory for that which doth not profit. Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this,
and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the Lord. For my people
have committed two evils; They have forsaken me the Fountain of Living
Waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
I'm afraid that truly is what I was given to say.
Frank Ritchie
Subject: Re: [Assembly-of-God] Agreement:
Response to Roger:
What you stated is not true, But I do agree Its time for me to move on, One
thing for sure that scripture has been hitting me over and over again, And
maybe it is truth meant for me to understand, But anyway I will respect your
demand and move on.
But there is another word in Acts 1:8 besides Witness, is called Power. Why
don't you do yourself a big favor and research that word, and how it
associated with the Holy Spirit, Also Roger what about Mark 16:15-20 I know a
lot would like to remove it from the Bible, Its messes up their way of
thinking.
I know what has been said will not leave the minds of those that read it. And
I pray it will be acted on. Because truly, without the Power of the Spirit in
our lives, we are in danger. Just like the scripture where it states; before
the vessel can be filled it has to be clean. And the scripture that states;
When the unclean spirit goes out of a man he walketh through dry places
seeking rest. ( We need the Power of the Spirit in our lives ). The Blood,
The Water and the Spirit. We are called to be a witness and Son's of God.
Frank Ritchie
(The End) or the beginning?